video-projection in Hamburg last night

mary 31.May.2007 04:35

There exist a video of the single-man action underlined with the voices of the arresting policeman:
 http://de.indymedia.org/2007/05/179480.shtml

Where is the political assessment of this current reality?

Petros Evdokas, petros@cyprus-org.net 31.May.2007 23:05

Our Feature article above states that:
"the summit will face one of the biggest mobilisations ever to shut down the G8."

What does indymedia know about the organization and preparations of the mobilization that justifies this statement? If we do, shouldn't we be telling all that to our readers, in addition to what sectors of the progressive and radical community are involved in this campaign, what tactics and events are being planned for and BY WHOM?

Reporting to a globe-wide readership of activists about an event that IndyMedia seems to think is important, should not be left up to generalizations. Is there any participation from the large mass-based progressive organizations in addition to the autonomist/ anarcho-collectivist / anarcho-individualist/ black-bloc tendencies? Is there an alliance with actual bridges between the sections of the Movement? What is the state of that alliance or coalition at the present? Is it working? Is it fragile? What are the points of unity holding it together?

Political reporting and analysis is something different than just "issuing calls" - the "calls" of course, must be communicated as well, but to remain at the level of slogans is to cultivate a shallow Movement without roots, existing only at the level of slogans.


How is success measured? In the article above there is mention of "up to 100 arrests" - is this how we measure the strength or depth of a mobilization? Are there other criteria that should be mentioned or shared here?

This "thing" of just stringing together links and calling it an article might be a valid way to do radical/progressive journalisn in the service of the Movement, to some people (and it certainly seems to be accepted by most indymedia writers as "the norm") but shouldn't we thinking in terms of "what are we doing?" and "what for?". Meaning, "what purpose does it serve to publish this in this form?" It's certainly a quick and easy thing to do - assemble some links in a sentence - but is it serving the mission of IndyMedia? Is it serving the mobilization of intelligent, loving, sensuous and community minded individuals and organizations toward a self-organised effort to attain Liberation? And where are the politics?

Petros Evdokas
____________

but we're not winning.

tired of activism. 01.Jun.2007 06:48

The problem is that we're not winning, and our movements seriously need to acknowledge this.

The compositon of the summit resistance movement has changed drastically in the last seven or eight years, for a multitude of reasons, many of which vary by region. But even in Europe so much energy has dissipated over the years. In the U.S. there is no summit resistance movement left worth speaking of (and there is of course the utterly ineffective and incompetant anti-war movement.) Instead of obsessing over a dying movement and utilizing slogans popularized nearly a decade ago at a completely different moment in class composition and working class power, it might be useful to realistically acknowledge where we are. We're losing in Europe and the U.S. While some struggles in the South have proven to be successful and brilliant, many of us in the North can't claim much success recently.

So please, for the love of god, stop repeating the same old stale slogans and protests, and please stop obsessing over your 'temporary autonomous zones' and moments of 'liberation' and start assessing reality. Realizing you can live a moment of cooperation with minimal capitalist relations is not that exciting when it realistically means some academics, with a few hundred anarchists and autonomist marxists mistaking their 'theoretical innovations' for movements with power.

We're not winning. That seems a lot more important to acknowledge at this point if we ever want to.

Riotious thugs

Disgusted 02.Jun.2007 23:24

Throw the lot of them in Jail!

Workingclass heroes!

@ 03.Jun.2007 00:24

These rioters are heroes. They deserve our deepest respect. Keep it going, people. We wont rest until Bush and the rest of these fuckers have to flee for their life!

You've got to be joking...

Disgusted 03.Jun.2007 02:56

O.K. lets take a poll then shall we, Which of the following definitions would you say best describes the individual pictured above:

(A) Hero: A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life

(B) Thug: An aggressive and violent young criminal

(Definitions from:  http://www.thefreedictionary.com, Photo from Anon. at the G8 "festivities" )

Workingclass heroes

@ 03.Jun.2007 08:15

I would have to choose alternative "a". And so would prolly most people on this site. They are heroes and should be treated as such. Destroy capitalism!

HERO!

twinkle 03.Jun.2007 08:43

If I had to choose between hero and thug, I definitely say Hero. I think this definition fits quite accurately:
(A) Hero: A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life.

Heroic thugs

Count 03.Jun.2007 18:57

It seems to me they fit both definitions perfectly. They are brave, they're cause is noble (even if u disagree with their methods), but they are violent and agressive, the majority are young, and they are criminal.

capitalism stole my virginity

@ 03.Jun.2007 20:38

They are criminal in the same way that capitalism makes us all criminals.Fine by us, we are rather criminals than slaves!

We? Winning?

Sure Pale Face 04.Jun.2007 05:03

Who the hell is we? These pasty faced children tossing rocks? You are not "we". Winning? You think the battle is at some G8 summit? You think that is where the front is? You guys are so full of shit. Interesting the graffiti featured is in English and the demo is in Germany? You are amateur revolutionaries. You are what I call World Bank Warriors. I am so tired of this crap. Patting each other on the backs and calling yourselves heros? Because you broke a window? You think you are making a difference? What at risk barrio, community, nation, or revolution did you advance? Read some history. Google Baader Meinhof? You think your rock tossing asses make any impact in Germany?

Your a bunch of less than committed, unorganized, window breaking dilettantes:

dilettante \DIL-uh-tont; dil-uh-TONT; dil-uh-TON-tee; -TANT; -TAN-tee\, noun:
1. An amateur or dabbler; especially, one who follows an art or a branch of knowledge sporadically, superficially, or for amusement only.
2. An admirer or lover of the fine arts.

adjective:
1. Of or characteristic of a dilettante; amateurish.

Pretentious, taking the movement backwards. Where progressives should be mobilizing behind movements like that of Evo Morales of Bolivia or even Hugo Chavez to put real power at bay, you want to take center stage?

Not that Chavez is the shining example but at least what he does makes a difference on the world scale.

You are like someone pretending to be a martial artist that has never in a fight. I mean really. Who are you?

I see anarchists who buy tickets to travel to Germany and break windows who do not support actions by people of color in their own communities. That is what I see. I see a bunch of people who have made petty vandalism a lifestyle.

Better than nothing but still almost nothing.

Working Class Heros?

Construction worker 04.Jun.2007 18:49

1) What makes them working class heros?
2) Why do these heros destroy peoples cars? Not luxury autos mind you but Fords and Volkswagons.

I was at a break the bank protest where a groups white college students who couldn't win a fight with an ant picked up some working class people's cars and damaged them, placed them in the middle of the street, and ran off laughing. What justifies this?
These cars probably belonged to maintenance workers and resteraunt workers.

I totally agree with the poster above. We are not winning. We aren't even treading water. You are really boring. Do you ever watch the coverage of this shit? "A group of lawless anarchists attacked the g8 summit injuring 400 police". That is the headline. You think the average working person knows what this means? If the point fails to get across? You have done nothing.

I will say this. These are the few demos where anarchists at least don't hide behind others to act childish. Soooooooo......

Hey if you are willing to get the crap beat out of you, go to jail, and smell like urine so you can burn some working persons car? Well ok? Hooray for the hero? I thought you guys wanted results. I figured out a long time ago, you just want to fuck shit up and that you had little interest in changing the world.

Thugs? Are to be feared

Go home 04.Jun.2007 19:18

You aren't thugs, you wouldn't last 5 minutes with real thugs. You aren't to be feared. You don't wield power. No one cares.

You aren't heros, you aren't thugs, you are posers.

You can't challenge the G8. Look at the leaders the individual nations have chosen. Sarkozy? Merkel? Bush? Blair? Putin? The revolution starts at home. If the people elect imperialists, your appearance at the g8 is just decrying the fact. The people of Germany are watching from the sidelines having just elected Merkel a center right technocrat of industry. They aren't with you.

We don't need another hero.....

We just need to know the way home 04.Jun.2007 19:19

Thunderdome

Forward he cried from the rear of the tribe

yawn 04.Jun.2007 19:21

I see people throwing rocks from within a crowd.

Dropping Knowledge

g8 05.Jun.2007 22:05

Hi folks - Wanted to let you know about a site with lots of alternative, copyleft coverage of G8 in Rostock/Heiligendamm.

 http://www.droppingknowledge.org/g8

Tons of edited films, photos and a blog - updated several times a day. Please consider posting a link on your site.

Where is the love?

@ 07.Jun.2007 22:34

Wow, alot of hate. A few comments:
"Who the hell is we? These pasty faced children tossing rocks? You are not "we"."

"We", as in the dispossesed, the proletariat, the material communist movement against capital. Why are you confused?

"Winning? You think the battle is at some G8 summit? You think that is where the front is?"

The battle? The front? The classwar is not some fucking war (despite its name). Why couldnt rebellion towards the G8 people be one of the places where we fight?

" You think you are making a difference? What at risk barrio, community, nation, or revolution did you advance?"

If you cant understand the importance of rebellion, you know nothing about social struggle. What nation did we advance? No nation because the workingclass has no nation.

"Google Baader Meinhof?"

It has nothing to do with Baader Meinhof. Maybe you should google them instead?

"Pretentious, taking the movement backwards. Where progressives should be mobilizing behind movements like that of Evo Morales of Bolivia or even Hugo Chavez to put real power at bay, you want to take center stage?"

Yeah cuz only them brownies have a right to fight for communism. Us rich folks should just support them brownies.

Setting the movmenet back? If anyone is setting "the movement" back it`s Hugo fucking Chaves. All the way back to 1910 or something. Statesocialism, thats so the last century. Get with it, man!

"Not that Chavez is the shining example but at least what he does makes a difference on the world scale. "

On a world scale? How so? By becoming buddies with the iranian dictator and so on? Socialism was tried a century ago as a way of making capitalism more pleasant for workers. Guess what, it failed. Wake up and smell the coffee!The problem with capitalism isn not managment, nor is it a problem of who the profits go to. In short; socialism will not solve the problem of capitalism. Which all you lefties will be painfully aware (once again!) soon.

"I see anarchists who buy tickets to travel to Germany and break windows who do not support actions by people of color in their own communities. That is what I see. I see a bunch of people who have made petty vandalism a lifestyle."

And i see a guy talking out of his ass.

"I was at a break the bank protest where a groups white college students who couldn't win a fight with an ant picked up some working class people's cars and damaged them, placed them in the middle of the street, and ran off laughing. What justifies this?
These cars probably belonged to maintenance workers and resteraunt workers."

Uhm, maybe that they were in the middle of a streetbattle with the fucking cops and needed barricades? And how the fuck do you know they were collegekids?

"Do you ever watch the coverage of this shit? "A group of lawless anarchists attacked the g8 summit injuring 400 police". That is the headline. You think the average working person knows what this means? If the point fails to get across? You have done nothing."

What you liberals and managers of revolt never understands is that what happens on the ground is more important sending sdome fucking packaged, turned down message "to the workers"

"Hey if you are willing to get the crap beat out of you, go to jail, and smell like urine so you can burn some working persons car? Well ok? Hooray for the hero? I thought you guys wanted results. I figured out a long time ago, you just want to fuck shit up and that you had little interest in changing the world."

There is no contradiction to "changing the world" and "shitting shit up". If you dont get that, then im sorry but you need to go home and stop pretending like you are a revolutionary intressting in changing the world. And we dont smell like urine, dickhead.

"You can't challenge the G8. Look at the leaders the individual nations have chosen. Sarkozy? Merkel? Bush? Blair? Putin? The revolution starts at home. If the people elect imperialists, your appearance at the g8 is just decrying the fact. The people of Germany are watching from the sidelines having just elected Merkel a center right technocrat of industry. They aren't with you."

The revolution starts everywhere. Yeah, those people were elected, but that doesnt mean "the people" arent with us (we ARE the fucking "people").

"You aren't heros, you aren't thugs, you are posers."

We are revolutionaries, unlike you spineless liberals.

"We dont need another hero..."

We ALL need to become heroes.

We are not winning

@realthug lol 08.Jun.2007 05:06

It is interesting the poster above never refutes the most important point.

"We are not winning".

We are being made fun of being sprayed with water on John Stewart.

It would be one thing if these tactics delivered victory. Winning territory. Large areas of land and people liberated. Screaming at leaders elected by THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE in these evil empires begs the question. Are the majority of the oppressed people in the world in France? The USA? Japan? Great Brtain? Germany? Canada? Italy? Russia?

Nope and what a coincidence these people who are not oppressed elect leaders to represent their continued oppression of the world. Isn't it time for you lazy bastards to start taking it to your own neighborhoods and forcing change in your own backyards?

The poster above say's: "we are the fucking people".

Ok you are homosapien. WOW. You are also not representative of the majority of your people. So maybe you should go throw rocks at your parents and the next door neighbor. Maybe start the discussion? No that's toooo boring.

Some people are busy really actually fighting a class war. You admit that what you are doing is not war.

Lead, Follow, but get the fuck out of the way. Because you are just half time entertainment.

The clowns are much more fun by the way.

We carry a new world in our hearts

@ 08.Jun.2007 10:38

"We are not winning".

We are winning. Obviously we wont win just by protesting the G8, but we are winning for sure.

"We are being made fun of being sprayed with water on John Stewart."

So? Jon Stewart makes fun of everything. Means jack-shit.

"It would be one thing if these tactics delivered victory. Winning territory. Large areas of land and people liberated."

Get it through your militaristic head that the classwar is not a war with front and lands to be liberated. Capitalism is not a a territory to conquer, its a social relation. We wont win by mobilising armies or storm the white house, its just not that kind of war.

"Are the majority of the oppressed people in the world in France? The USA? Japan? Great Brtain? Germany? Canada? Italy? Russia?"

No? The proletariat/dispossesed in the western world are not "opressed"? What are you, some kind of crasy maoist, or something?

"Isn't it time for you lazy bastards to start taking it to your own neighborhoods and forcing change in your own backyards?"

We do that all the time. Classwar needs to be fought everywhere.

"Ok you are homosapien. WOW. You are also not representative of the majority of your people."

Unlike you we dont claim to represent anyone but ourselves. But we are a part of the "people", of the proletariat, the dispossesed.

"Maybe start the discussion? No that's toooo boring."

You dont win the classwar by talking or converting people into anarchism/communism. You win it by being involved in the actual classconflict against capital. And thats what we are doing.

"Some people are busy really actually fighting a class war. You admit that what you are doing is not war."

I said that the classwar isnt a war. And we are also busy fighting the classwar, as you can see.

"Lead, Follow, but get the fuck out of the way. Because you are just half time entertainment."

The dispossesed in the westernworld are just half-time entertainment? Only them brownies can revolt, huh?

Intelligence -vs- Blockheads

ATTAC 09.Jun.2007 00:24

15 Police Officers Against 5,000 Demonstrators
By Ingo Arzt and Florian Gathmann in Heiligendamm, Germany

By the end of the first day of the G-8 summit in Heiligendamm, many demonstrators were proud of themselves and convinced that they are "better organized than the police." Around noon, thousands managed to push past the police and break through the security fence.


By 11:30 a.m., it must have been clear to police what they were up against. To their right, along the central access road to the G-8 summit's conference zone in Heiligendamm, a vast oat field was filled with an endless sea of people, singing songs and waving flags. The police officers from the German state of Saxony-Anhalt gripped their shields more tightly and pulled down the visors on their helmets. By then the 15 officers, in their green combat uniforms, were facing 5,000 G-8 protestors. Only a few kilometers separated the masses from the suite occupied by US President George W. Bush at the Hotel Kempinski.

"It's a great success for us," said a spokesman from the group "Block G-8." The police could be making precisely the opposite statement. "I don't understand how this could have happened," one officer said. Of course, the official police take on the incident sounds a little different from the protestors' version. According to a spokesman of the Kavala special unit, the authorities were not taken by surprise and were "deployed with significant forces."

But the protestors were never meant to get this close to the site of the summit meeting of the leaders of the world's most powerful countries. German authorities had set up a six-kilometer security zone around the hotel where the summit is taking place. But that effort was apparently in vain.

Protestors had already blocked the A19 autobahn, which passes the airport in Rostock, the city closest to the G-8 conference hotel in Heiligendamm. "We wanted to pull apart the forces of the police and tie up as many officers as possible in the area near the airport," said a spokesman of the protestors.

By 10 a.m., what was about to happen must have been obvious to the police. Almost the entire camp of about 8,000 G-8 protestors at Reddelich -- a village located between Kröpelin and Bad Doberan near Heiligendamm -- were on the move. The march began along a stretch of road heading east, suddenly veered to the left into a forest and then continued through fields and meadows in the direction of Heiligendamm. The crowd quickly acquired a helicopter escort, but otherwise there was no sign of police -- for the space of two hours.

It was an odd mix of people. Some walked alongside bicycles, while others carried straw bales wrapped in red netting to help them set up barriers at night. Some carried flags and banners. The march had the air of a modern-day mass migration. "This is craziness," said a young man with long, blonde hair, standing in the middle of a large rapeseed field, surrounded by red poppies.

'We Are Better Organized than the Police'

The protestors marched in five groups, organized by colors and identified by small flags. There were also smaller, named subgroups. "Stoiber, where is Stoiber?" a young woman yelled, looking for her group.

"We are better organized than the police," people kept repeating. "Well, after all, we did spend three days practicing this blockade in our camp," said a spokesman of a union youth group known as IG Metall Jugend. The protestors had developed something they called the "five-finger system" -- referring to their ability to fan out and then come together again. The concept, the spokesman said, is called "back and forth, thousands of times," and was tested at protests conducted against transports in Germany of radioactive waste from nuclear power plants.

The closer it came to its destination, the faster the group moved. "This adrenaline is unbelievable," said one marcher. The crowd suddenly began to cheer when the fence became visible in the distance, but then nothing happened for hours. The leaders of the march had contacted the police to ensure that everything remained peaceful. During the course of the day, more and more police units arrived on the scene, but the effort seemed highly uncoordinated. A group of police officers from the southern German state of Baden-Württemberg was dispatched to the area from the airport, located on the other side of Rostock. "We had to drive across all these paths through the fields; it was totally chaotic," one officer said.

The situation remained calm, even when the police announced, at about 2 p.m., that it planned to shift the protestors back a few hundred meters. And even the arrival of three water canons a short time later was met with relative calm, although it was unclear why the police had brought in the water canons at that juncture. "There are apparently some stone throwers among the protestors," one officer said.

As a result of the protest march, all access points were blocked, so that journalists and summit attendees alike had to be brought to the site by boat. This was Block G-8's biggest achievement on this first day of the summit. When the group's spokesman announced, using a loudspeaker, "You did it!" the crowd cheered. By evening, it was announced that the police would be bringing in reinforcements, including some police units from Berlin.

But the G-8 opponents were hardly impressed by such announcements on this first day of the summit. "As long as the summit continues, we'll be blocking it here," said Sven Giegold, the coordinator of Attac, a network critical of globalization.

Brownies????

DEM BONES 09.Jun.2007 00:35

Great we got anti g8 Neo nazis.

You don't address the issues

Anti-testosterone 09.Jun.2007 03:24

First you just call Attac liberals. You fail to address the fact that they are the bulk of what is keeping the protest going. You fail to recognize that they are the ones moving forward.

Why are they liberals? I know alot of people from Attac who are anarchists in France. You are really off base.

Also when and how did the person you continue to respond to say they were a Maoist? When did the person say anything racist?

It is a valid point to make that white people are too often always ready to grab the lead rather than gain ideas from other cultures.

I have thrown rocks and have been arrested. I for one feel it has turned counter to our goals. I see the pictures. The overwhelming majority of people throwing rocks are men. This is the fact. In every picture it is a man throwing a rock. I am sure you can find one with a female or two but why do you think the block is overwhelmingly white and male? Do you care?

Fed up with liberals, Fed up with commies, Fed up with anarchists

la proxy obnoxy 09.Jun.2007 03:35

Cool well what about individuals who disagree with all of you? Yet still wish to change the world? Individuals who don't want to live in a totalitarian state of authoritarian boredom or a formless chaotic collectivist society where discussion is boring and endeavor is made fun of. Individuals who feel that just because you are against imperialism doesn't mean you are for either of these less than attractive alternatives. Ever heard of Emma Goldman? She was a pacifist Anarchist. She travelled to Russia and got thrown in jail for speaking against sexism and anti-semitism. Was she just a maoist, sell out, capitalist?

I don't think so. I think you can be an anarchist and a pacifist.

Absolute truth

ART of WAR 09.Jun.2007 20:05

To @,

From the Art of War:

"So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will win hundred times in hundred battles. If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you win one and lose the next. If you do not know yourself or your enemy, you will always lose.

Therefore One hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the most skillful. Seizing the enemy without fighting is the most skillful. "

The problem with progressives today is that the sophistication of their politics is vastly superior to their knoiwledge of struggle or strategy.

Even Che' studied and utilized the work of Sun Tzu. Was it because he was a great,cool,guy? No It was because he knew what he was talking about.

The desired outcome that is not fought for but obtained is the greatest of all victories.

The problem is you want to show up whereever and throw rocks and then get a pat on the back for how cool you are.

Meanwhile you are giving the enemy to know you, watch you, encircle you, (and know this)and at any time they wish cut you down where you stand with superior fire power and man power. Even when your numbers are larger a well fed conditioned and trained army will defeat a force 20 times it's size.

There is a reason they do not cut you down.

To seem bigger. To not invoke the wrath of society at large.

They need the Block to throw rocks in order to justify wiping them off the street. No large problem. Your soldiers dress in Black and join the unorganized rabble that has no internal security apparatus. Your clandestine troops then throw rocks from the side of the rabble.

The rabble then too stupid to stop the infiltrators as they are sypathetic with the action of throwing rocks at the government troops join in.

The government then is justified (on camera anyway) in cracking heads, firing tear gas, cancelling all public rallies, and raiding the homes of suspected rioters.

Good job children.

The force that is inferior in arms and size must then do the opposite of what is expected of it. Dress like clowns. Make clear the minor threat you present. Make your point. Infiltrate the other side and make them laugh.

While the jester snuck into the castle, the jester took the key to all the riches.

Being inferior and standing in a line in front of your superior enemy and inviting violence is not heroic or smart. It is just ignorant.

It is against every guerilla tacticians handbook. It is just school boy. So school boy.

Stop the rocks start the strategy

Read study struggle 09.Jun.2007 20:09

Our goal is to win not fight.

Cannot take the debate...?

@ 09.Jun.2007 21:40

Well, i wrote a long response to all of you but someone apparently thought i was out of line for some reason (maybe because im beating your asses and you cant handle it) So i wont write anymore.

Again, the class struggle is not a war, neither guerilla nor otherwise. So studying the art of war wont help you one bit. Che was a terrible guerilla strategist and failed miserably.

Che was shit and you are great hahahaha

You loser 10.Jun.2007 00:52

What an idiot. Your not debating. Your all over the place. Your just a loser.

Who are you?

Huh? 10.Jun.2007 02:24

@, Who are you To define:

Class struglle
Class warfare
Revolutionary Struggle
The Proletariat
The failure or success of Che

Your just a stupid ass who feels comfortable throwing around racist words like "Brownie"?

You don't know why one of your posts got cut? Revolutionaries don't throw around the word "Brownies".

Te idiots are taking over!

@ 10.Jun.2007 15:47

Oh my god, the liberalidiots have taken over indymedia international! What a waste.

Its common knowledge that che was a complete failure in his guerillacampaign. Thast why he was taken prisoner and killed eventuelly. Thats why he didnt manage to make one single country into a "socialistparadise". Read some history books. Infact, read any book.

Im not "all over the place". Im just waaay over you liberalidiots level. Have a nice day, assholes.

You just figured out we are liberal?

URA Jerk 11.Jun.2007 04:30

You just figured out we are all so liberal we are way to the left of liberal? Who wants anything to do with a person who calls people Brownies? Who hates liberals? and who fails to recognize the accomplishments of Che?

I am not a commie but even capitalists recognize the accomplishments of the Cuban revolution. Cuba has it's problems but at least they have health care, housing, and free education.Freedom of thought and expression they fail at but they are whooping everyone elses asses on so many levels.

It seems you just want to make thin minded arguments for breaking things. Even things that belong to working class families. You need to come to my neighborhood and talk your "Brownie" trash. You wouldn't last 30 seconds.

The point

bastille day 11.Jun.2007 10:29

The Point

Is?

Stop playing War at peaceful gatherings. You admit this "class Struggle" you are engaged in is not a "class War" or any other kind of war. Are you tellingus that throwing large rocks at people is not a war like action? Be clear. What are you doing. I see pictures of clowns standing around doing nothing but being fummy meanwhile you are next to them throwing rocks? Message? Who cares if non-violent protestors are next to me I will throw rocks anyway?

You yourself say over and over again. "This is not a war. Yet you fools continue to want to play "cowboys and indians" or some variation of Army.

To the point of your racist "Brownie" crap.

The rest of the world have coddled the white European and American while they went back and forth between center rigth and center left long enough. France is poised to elect a left government? No! Polls show they are reverting to a right wing government once again.

The whole world is going ot hell waiting on your infantile notions of "class struggle". The fact is no white country has set about any sort of justice for any length of time. Ever. You alawys revert back to nationalism and imperialism when you are mad about your life style being compimised.

You are rising up against? How? When? Consistently?

I think not.

Dispossessed Class? France? Europe?

URA jerk 11.Jun.2007 10:39

@

Have you heard about the projected outcome of the elections in France? A 70% landslide for the right wing. Are those "the people" you are talking about? They are expectivg the right wing to take 470 out of 577 seats. I have no sympathy for these fools any longer.

liberals to the left of the republican party?

@ 12.Jun.2007 14:17

You are not "to the left" of anything. Very sad that indymedia has developed into a safehaven for whiny liberals who cannot argue without turning into name-calling and slandering at the first sight of anybody who got some brains and have read some (politicaltheory) books. But thats fine, i will just leave you kiddies alone to play with eachother instead. But kidz; leave the actual social struggle to us grownup, wont you?

I just cannot leave the outlandish statement that Emma Goldman was a pacifist uncommented. She was not a pacifist of any kind. Infact, she tried to assassinate a factoryboss together with her husband. She was a strong supporter of violent workingclass struggle and revolution. She saw no contradiction in being for violent methods and at the same time to be a feminist and a critic of marxist-leninist (and Lenin himself, together with the Bolsheviks and the russian revolution).

Have a nice day!

Quote from Emma against violence

UR still a jerk 13.Jun.2007 10:13

1) Emma divorced her husband so go figure your bumb behind.
2) After her life companion Alexander Berkman was found guilty and sentenced to 20 years in jail she foresook violence for herself but did not condemn revolutionary struggle(such as in Spain)for others.
3) She never was implicated nor involved in violence for the rest of her life.
4) You are an idiot.

Your political theory that allows for calling people Brownies is right out of Mein Kampf. You aren't advanced you are in fact probably of the intellect of the retard framed for the burning of the Reichstag.

Emma Goldamn on Violence:


Emma Golman on Violence:

"As an anarchist, I am opposed to violence. But if the people want to do away with assassins, they must do away with the conditions which produce murderers."

Oh my god, you understand nothing about Emma Goldman!

zzzzzz 13.Jun.2007 13:39

I have a feeling that that qoute is taken out of its context to serve your intressts (and i could ofcourse find lots and lots of qoutes that supports violence). But its an intressting choice since even in that small qoute you manage to argue against yourself. The "but" in that sentence tells us that she was infact not against violence and she saw it as a neccessary method to overthrow capitalism. You dumbass.

I wont argue with idiots who cant even understand the context of which i used "brownie", you all sound like you are 10 year old and cant even grasp simple rhetoric. I was being sarcastic over YOUR degrading, and ultimately, racist view of the poor people in the third world who have more right to rebell than us whities in the western world. If you cant understand how rascist and condescendent that it....well, then you are just stupid (as you have allready proven you are).

And to the dumbass who think it matters who get elected as primeminister in France; it doesnt. There aqre still dispossessed in France and they still need to rebell. That some of them might even have voted for the rightwoing candidate tells us nothing. Have you allready forgotten the straight up UPRISING in france last year? Or the "student" movement there? Thats prolly one of the biggest thing that has happen in the western world since the 60ies. People in the western world are dispossessed and need to rebell, and they know it and do it all the time. Only you cant see it cuz you are staring yourself blind on the people in the third world like the little maoist you are. Fuck off with that shit!

Why don't you respond to the debate and stop jerkin

UR still @ Jerk 14.Jun.2007 10:18

You are really such a child. No one ever said Emma Goldman condemned all self-defense. As evidenced by her coverage of the Spanish Civil war she was extremely inspired by those fighting a fascist take over by the Spanish government. She did not however ever fell compelled after the conviction of her companion (not her husband you dumb ass she divorced that asshole) Alexander Berkman and sentenced to 20 years in jail to ever be a part of armed struggle again. She decided violence was not in the best interest of the movement or herself. It was a strategic and not a moral decision child. Those are the facts.
You repeatedly fail to respond to facts stated.

Often as in the case of Nelson Mandela and the ANC, even though he sat in jail for 27 years for refusing to condemn armed struggle against Apartheid, he as well as the ANC decided the best strategy given the high profile Apartheid in South Africa had gained in the international media was to cease armed struggle. You see you are too stupid to understand there are multiple and endless strategies for struggle and no one fits every scenario. Something the Block has no understanding of.

Also every reputable liberation movement has a political wing and an active action wing. Political protest should invite and envelope everyone who wants to participate from the person in a wheel chair to the pacifist priest. Events organized by umbrella coalitions should not be forced to an intense state of militancy by a bunch of testosterone junky white boys. Let’s be clear. Every Block (and I have been a part and around them since the beginning (way before Seattle). In fact Kid, I was in Germany in the 70’s back when it still meant something (and no I wasn’t in the military asshole).

Although the cops will often instigate violence at peaceful demos one of the most commonly witnessed goes like this. Super militant starts cussing and running at cops from within peaceful demo. In fact cops have been identified as the ring leaders of spontaneous violence at numerous peaceful demos cops needed an excuse to break up a demo. This has been videotaped and provocateurs are cataloged and photographed as going to meetings and suggesting hyper violence in settings that are obviously inappropriate etc..

Revolutionary struggle is legitimate not always but when:

1) People live under a dictatorship and not an elected government.
2) Communities are defending themselves from aggressive and unwarranted attack
3) Oppressed nationalities such as Native Americans, the Irish and others struggle against imperialist colonialist enterprises.
4) The overwhelming majority of the people and press are denied free expression.

In the case of the USA and Europe, the bourgeoisie and pampered colonialist classes have never really voted for true revolutionary change for a consistent length of time. Like in France, where anti-immigrant racism is being embraced by the majority (and I have been there numerous times), greed and a forgetful populace who fails to recognize most of these immigrants as being from former colonies France raped, they will choose greed and ignorance. Interesting Phenom. When I was in France last the family I was staying with (by no means progressive) had no problem with white Serbian Yugoslavian refugees but wanted the Arabs and Africans gone. It was sad to hear their venomous racism and their intent to vote for the fascist Le Pen.

When the chips are down Europeans turn to what they know best. Fascism! I have lived there and know many people there (no I was not a rich college student). They are progressive when it comes to their health care but every so often they turn to a Hitler to cleanse the blood through nationalism. And Here we go again in France.

So who are the dispossessed in France? The immigrants, the children of forgotten French colonialism. They were the movement that rose up you spoke about. What was the reaction by the way? The election and landslide of the very party of Sarkozy they were protesting. So is burning cars always THE tactic? Is it always ok? Not when you are burning the car of the persons whose sympathy you desire.

The point you keep refusing to deal with is this. IS it smart to always dress in black, to always throw shit, to always be predictable? No! You must choose your struggles carefully. You must as Mandela did know when to shift to the boycott. Now you are going to respond “Mandela is an ass sucking liberal”, “He is no revolutionary” and I will say back to you? Love to see your resume moron. Bet nowhere will it say “ended 300 years of white rule in a country where 10% of the population ruled over the other 90%. And if it doesn’t say that you have no credentials to say shit to Mandela. He was settin’ it off when you weren’t born. If you are comfortable attacking a 89 year old man because he choose to be a commie and throw out his 27 years in jail and call him a whining liberal? Once again I can’t wait to meet your ass because we would have real struggle between us and it would be vigorous.

Go back to school, little kid

@ 14.Jun.2007 11:22

"1) Emma divorced her husband so go figure your bumb behind. "

Irrelevant information.

"2) After her life companion Alexander Berkman was found guilty and sentenced to 20 years in jail she foresook violence for herself but did not condemn revolutionary struggle(such as in Spain)for others."

I would like to see a qoute where she "foresook violence" . By the way, i hope you are not confusing assassination with collective violence in social struggle, because it is not the same thing. She rejected violence against individual capitalists after the failed assassination attempt, but she did not ever in her life reject violence used collectively in social struggle. I dre you to challenge that claim. You wont, because you cannot.

"3) She never was implicated nor involved in violence for the rest of her life."

Irrelevant information and has prolly more to do with outside circumstances (like getting deported and getting old) than anything else.

"4) You are an idiot."

Well, atleast im not a clueless foll like you.

Actually you racist Imigration marches Biggest thing

Real thing 14.Jun.2007 11:50

You racist! Once again you overlook the millions who marhed for immigrant rights in the USA over the last year. The largest marches in the history of the USA and you call some march in France the biggest thing in the west? You are really showing your racism @. Oh those rallies were too peaceful for you to consider significant. I forgot.

You are still misinformed

fool 14.Jun.2007 19:21

You are really such a child. No one ever said Emma Goldman condemned all self-defense. As evidenced by her coverage of the Spanish Civil war she was extremely inspired by those fighting a fascist take over by the Spanish government. She did not however ever fell compelled after the conviction of her companion (not her husband you dumb ass she divorced that asshole) Alexander Berkman and sentenced to 20 years in jail to ever be a part of armed struggle again. She decided violence was not in the best interest of the movement or herself. It was a strategic and not a moral decision child. Those are the facts.
You repeatedly fail to respond to facts stated.

Often as in the case of Nelson Mandela and the ANC, even though he sat in jail for 27 years for refusing to condemn armed struggle against Apartheid, he as well as the ANC decided the best strategy given the high profile Apartheid in South Africa had gained in the international media was to cease armed struggle. You see you are too stupid to understand there are multiple and endless strategies for struggle and no one fits every scenario. Something the Block has no understanding of.

Also every reputable liberation movement has a political wing and an active action wing. Political protest should invite and envelope everyone who wants to participate from the person in a wheel chair to the pacifist priest. Events organized by umbrella coalitions should not be forced to an intense state of militancy by a bunch of testosterone junky white boys. Let’s be clear. Every Block (and I have been a part and around them since the beginning (way before Seattle). In fact Kid, I was in Germany in the 70’s back when it still meant something (and no I wasn’t in the military asshole).

Although the cops will often instigate violence at peaceful demos one of the most commonly witnessed goes like this. Super militant starts cussing and running at cops from within peaceful demo. In fact cops have been identified as the ring leaders of spontaneous violence at numerous peaceful demos cops needed an excuse to break up a demo. This has been videotaped and provocateurs are cataloged and photographed as going to meetings and suggesting hyper violence in settings that are obviously inappropriate etc..

Revolutionary struggle is legitimate not always but when:

1) People live under a dictatorship and not an elected government.
2) Communities are defending themselves from aggressive and unwarranted attack
3) Oppressed nationalities such as Native Americans, the Irish and others struggle against imperialist colonialist enterprises.
4) The overwhelming majority of the people and press are denied free expression.

In the case of the USA and Europe, the bourgeoisie and pampered colonialist classes have never really voted for true revolutionary change for a consistent length of time. Like in France, where anti-immigrant racism is being embraced by the majority (and I have been there numerous times), greed and a forgetful populace who fails to recognize most of these immigrants as being from former colonies France raped, they will choose greed and ignorance. Interesting Phenom. When I was in France last the family I was staying with (by no means progressive) had no problem with white Serbian Yugoslavian refugees but wanted the Arabs and Africans gone. It was sad to hear their venomous racism and their intent to vote for the fascist Le Pen.

When the chips are down Europeans turn to what they know best. Fascism! I have lived there and know many people there (no I was not a rich college student). They are progressive when it comes to their health care but every so often they turn to a Hitler to cleanse the blood through nationalism. And Here we go again in France.

So who are the dispossessed in France? The immigrants, the children of forgotten French colonialism. They were the movement that rose up you spoke about. What was the reaction by the way? The election and landslide of the very party of Sarkozy they were protesting. So is burning cars always THE tactic? Is it always ok? Not when you are burning the car of the persons whose sympathy you desire.

The point you keep refusing to deal with is this. IS it smart to always dress in black, to always throw shit, to always be predictable? No! You must choose your struggles carefully. You must as Mandela did know when to shift to the boycott. Now you are going to respond “Mandela is an ass sucking liberal”, “He is no revolutionary” and I will say back to you? Love to see your resume moron. Bet nowhere will it say “ended 300 years of white rule in a country where 10% of the population ruled over the other 90%. And if it doesn’t say that you have no credentials to say shit to Mandela. He was settin’ it off when you weren’t born. If you are comfortable attacking a 89 year old man because he choose to be a commie and throw out his 27 years in jail and call him a whining liberal? Once again I can’t wait to meet your ass because we would have real struggle between us and it would be vigorous.

thats right, keep making a fool out of yourself...

@ 15.Jun.2007 19:04

Dumbass nr1: i was talking about the uprising in the suburbs of France. Not the student thing.

Dumbass nr2. where is the evidence that she foresook violence as a method of choice for the movement? Show me where she says that! You calling it facts doesnt make it so. Also, you are confusing fucking violence and attacks against INDIVIDUAL CAPITALISTS with violence by a social movement against the chains of capital. She never rejected violence. Prove me wrong then, asshole.

The rest of your post is just liberal rantings. Its not even worth responding to for serious revolutionary intressted in real social change. Not use violence because we live in a "dmeocracy"? Give me a break. You are one of those liberals who likes to think of themselves as "radicals", but when the shit hits the fan FOR REAL, you will find the place where you allways belonged - along with the counter-revolutionaries and capitalists! Fuck off. Pacifism is so lame....

Not a pacifist

ur a jerk 15.Jun.2007 23:13

When and where would you like to meet so I can show you? Some people have fought.You can tell a true fighter they never look forward to the fight. ALl the talkers ever do is talk about some fight they have never been in.

Testosterone is lame

Lil syntax U 16.Jun.2007 01:35

@ keeps responding to things nobody said. Others include research and quotes and he just says "pacifism is lame", "liberals are shit". He is a he that is for sure. Never repsonds to the fact that Blockers are 95% white and male. Never responds to the need for a strategy.
He just seems illiterate and screaming about stuff he doens't comprehend. It seems he is just angry someone pointed out that the Black Block is mainly white males breaking things.

I have a question I bet he won't answer.

Name three critiques you have of the Block? That don't include answers like "they don't throw enough shit at demos".

Just name three.

We all know people who have no sense of self analysis are just egotistical slobs.

Man, im crushing you guys!

@ 16.Jun.2007 13:10

It is bullshit that the black bloc is 95% white and male. The black bloc exists all over the world, in the third world too. In Europe it may be mostly white but thats because most people in Europe are whites, dumbass! Whites need to rebel just as much as coloured people, i dont see anything wrong with white people rebelling in the black bloc.

Strategy?Whats your strategy? You have none. All you have are vague mystified thoughts about "winning the people over to our side". Thats no strategy, and the miserable state of the left shows that you have no strategy.

Quaking in our boots

U DA MAN 16.Jun.2007 16:10

Oh my what will we do. The murderous 14 year olds have come with their rocks to scare the boogey man away. Armed with their rock throwing analysis how could they be beaten. Their Anglo Saxon revolutionary legacy to show us how the little boys throw down game.

He who can see in all the females in the pictures above throwing rocks (ZERO).

He who defends an all white black block on a continent that is 10 percent Muslim immigrant.

What clarity.

Middleclass liberals dont know how to argue

@ 16.Jun.2007 22:43

What do you want; you want precentage representation by the people of colour in the bloc? Are you insane? If it makes you feel any better i can tell you that the riot dubbled in size after half an hour with "regular" people and people of colour from the third world joining the black bloc to fight the pigs. You see, they dont have any moral problem with fighting the cops because they too, unlike you middleclass liberals, know what this system is really like.

And to the asshole who threatened me; hey fuckface, i will meet you any time at any place! Bring it on, sucka!

Funny how you idiots call me the testostirone and angry one, when its YOU who are trying to shout me down, call me names and slander me. I have tried to have a discussion but you kiddies cant handle that anyone challenge your liberal, pacifist dogma, so you try to shut me up.

Speaking about no women in the black bloc...

@ 17.Jun.2007 15:42

..the person at the front (to the left) in the first picture sure looks like a woman to me. So what was that about no women in the black bloc? Morons.

Meet me in Miami

Chicken 18.Jun.2007 01:12

I warned you before I am not a pacifist. I have trained people in the movement in Kung Fu for 20 years. I also trained professionally in all of the martial trainings including equipment. We will be there July 5th with video to prove you weren't there chicken.

Camp Reynolds
18601 NE 22 Avenue, Miami FL 33180
FIre Ring

July 5th 6:00pm

One woman enough for @

Moron 18.Jun.2007 01:48

One woman? That is enough for you?

The one woman isn't throwing rocks

sexist 18.Jun.2007 07:34

He is ok with one woman in the picture. One who isn't throwing rocks.

Also? No one was there to take pics when the people of color showed up?

I have seen a thousand pictures and video from these demos and I have seen one person of color.

Lilltle Buddy

xmass 18.Jun.2007 07:39

Little Buddy is stuck on stupid. He takes on the argument with "I think it is always smart to stick your head in a lions mouth" ie... it is always smart to throw rocks regardless of the situation or consequence. And he tells anyone who disagrees they are a pacifist even when they say they aren't.

He doesn't respond to militant Mandela calling for a strategic ceasefire. He doesn't respond to any factual arguments with facts. He just calls people Brownie and moves on.

He defends lack of women by saying "look there is one woman".

Dude you are just dumb.

This just in- Black Block on Viagra

get laid 18.Jun.2007 12:16

Black Blockers

Calm Down Get laid.

You have been poisened with testosterone and Viagra. This strategy was set upon by the authorities to make it impossible for you to do anything but run around in crowd banging into people and throwing rocks. You are compelled to throw rocks in an effort to keep the cops away from the one poor woman stupid enough to hang with you.

You been took. You been had. They put Cialis in the humus.

If you have an erection for more than four hours see a doctor.

little kiddies, go back to sleep

@ 18.Jun.2007 12:31

One woman in five random pictures. I would call that a good thing. I think it shows that there were quite alot of women there too, since they are able to get represented in these five random pictures. And she is holding a stone and are about to throw it. Dumbass.

Ok, dumbas, i will see you in Miami. And you will see my fists against your face.

Get it through your head that i dont give a fuck about Mandela, Ghandi or MLK, they were liberal reformists, who if anything, recuperated a real social movement instead of helping it. That Mandela says something doesnt work as an argument to me because i dont give a fuck about him. Where are all the other "facts" that i havent responded to? I just see liberal rantings about how we cant use violence because we live in a "democracy". Fuck off with that bullshit. Rantings arent facts, they are just rantings. You are the dumbass. The ignorant dumbass. My god, am i arguing with 12-year olds??

"To us, violent means are not superior by nature to peaceful ones. But a movement that renounces violence renounces historical change, and contents itself with whatever doses of change the existing system will permit."

Once again you just get it wrong

See ya 19.Jun.2007 07:52

you have made it how clear it is what a dumb ass you are. Mandela and Ghandi don't belong in the same sentence. Mandela never renounced armed struggle idiot. That is why he sat in Jail for 27 years? For refusing to renounce armed struggle. The ANC did temporarily and for strategic reasons cease armed struggle. Mandela could whip your ass at the age of 89. He was a weapons maker and chief military startegist. The ended 300 years of apartheid racism. Through vatious strategies including armed struggle but also employing an international boycott.

Everyone here sees your ignorance clearly. You don't know MLK from Mandela. MLK and Ghandi were pacifists. Mandela was not. Anyone who knew anything abouut the history of struggle in South Africa would know that.

Once again failing to respond to the facts.

This is way over your head.

The rest of us would like to go on with a constructive dialouge with an intelligent and thoughtful self critique of the movement. You aren't capable. All you can do is call people names and misinterpret history.

You can't spew out MLK. Ghandi and Mandela are liberal pacifists and not look like a complete idiot. Anyone who knows a beginners knowledge of the history of the ANC in South Africa is laughing at you not with you.

As if you who ever you are have sacrificed even a minute of the 27 years Mandela sacrificed for the people, have any right to call out Mandela? Your a baby. It is obvious. You know absolutely nothing about what you are speaking.

This isn't to say Mandela was perfect or at his advanced age coming out of prison he made all the right decisions as the new president, but one thing is for sure. He and his comrades ended 300 years of colonial rule. You are just some video game playing poser. Passing gas.

What a sexist!