IMC Italie menacée par le gouvernement italien
Arnaud 10 May 2005 06:40 GMT (translated by Arnaud)Dernières nouvelles
blaspheme
Un procureur de Rome, Salvatore Vitello, a lancé des poursuites contre Indymedia Italie pour offense à la religion catholique et d'atteinte à l'intégrité personnelle du nouveau Pape. Il a demandé la fermeture du site Indymedia italien pour avoir permis la publication dans le fil de nouvelle d'une image fabriquée représentant le Pape portant un uniforme nazi. Actuellement, le site d'Indymedia Italie est accessible même si des rumeurs courent dans les agences de presse italienne qui annoncent que le serveur a déjà été saisi. Ce n'est pas la première fois que la justice italienne s'attaque à Indymedia, on se souvient que le FBI avaient déjà saisi les disques durs du serveur qui hébergeait Indymedia Italie en octobre 2004, mais les disques avaient été rendus. (Ntd : la justice italienne est très agressive envers Indymedia depuis les sommets de Palerme et de Gênes en 2001). L'enquête d'Indymedia sur la saisie d'octobre 2004 quant à elle continue.
Réactions et compte-rendu de la presse [it]
Les partis d'extrême-droite exultent || L'Unità || Reuters || Adnkronos || Tg com || Opinions en provenance de la newswire
Personally, I fail to see the fascists' problem...
Daniel Keleti, Writer 06.May.2005 21:35
I mean - they have only reminded the pope of his youth` and doesn't any old man like to remember it? ;-)
But more seriously now - any country, which mindrapes its citizens to respect religion, cannot even consider itself democratic, let alone liberal. Such action, reminds me of how the jews, or the taliban, behave regarding to such matters. From the EU, we tend to expect for somewhat higher stanards, than those of dark, theocratic societies, such as israhell (my personal mindjail - until I'll move OUT of here, Hopefully pretty soon), saudiarabia, or iran.
would basing servers outside Italy help?
me 06.May.2005 23:21
would hosting the server outside Italy help? I'm in the US which probably wouldn't help since the FBI has already been involved in harassment...
Insiduous.
d. 07.May.2005 05:58
Daniel Keleti, your comment, putting Jews and Taliban in the same sentence as religious fundamentalists is wrong. The Taliban is one branch of a religion, they have a specific ideology. The Jews are a whole religion and ethnicity, there are very different branches of Judaism, including atheist Jews.
Your implication that all Jews are intolerant and religious is racist.
I hope that Indymedia Italy is allowed to continue publishing its news and the government leaves it alone, but I am not prepared to stand by while someone posting on indymedia brands me, a non-religious, anti-capitalist Jew in the same group as the Taliban!!
to "d", who doesn't even have the minimal decency to identify himself
Daniel Keleti, Writer 08.May.2005 10:14
Judaism is a monotheistic religion. Period. No nationality, just religion. A century ago, the only ones, who insisted upon considering judaism as a nationality, were the antisemites, and then, as a result, also the zionnists; and being neither, I do NOT consider judaism to be anything, BUT a monotheistic religion, and the source for christianity and islam alike. The monotheism is the origin of everything fascist - because, if there is only ONE true god, then there is only ONE truth, period - and everybody, who dares claming otherwise... get the stones! This monotheistic faith, is also the origin of sexism, homophobia, racism, xenophobia, and so on (and you can check the bible - it's all in there: this thou shalt stone, that thou shalt not permit to live... All that misanthropic blaberment, inciting for atrocities). So, that's why I despise all those faiths. I cannot see any difference, between the schtreimel-wearing people, of bney-brak and brooklin, and the taliban; they are the same and they are wanting the same: to stone me. And, if you aren't religious - you aren't a jew (as that's a religion), but a hebrew, a canaanite, an israeli, or whatever else you'd like to put it. And, there cannot be "an atheistic religious"... right?
The title doesn't correspond tu truth
psylocibe 08.May.2005 18:15
The title "IMC Italy threatened by Italian government" is not true. IMC Italy is threatened by a single judge, not bye the Government.
LIve Long and Die Young? Is that a good title?
Zippo 08.May.2005 21:20
Ignorant may be more like it, d.
The first thing people usually hear about “jews” is religion. Judaism is also a culture, and also an ethnicity, all three of which have characteristics independent of the other two.
Case in point, Daniel Keleti, from your own post - The state of Israel is far from religious. Capitalistic, materialistic and fascist all might better describe the nation than adherence to the teachings of Talmud. We might add water starved, as is the whole "mid-east", if we want to get into a deeper analysis.
Back on topic, the whole charge seems kind of silly if the pope himself did not complain. But then, it’s the Italian judges own reputation that’s on the line...
Salvatore Vitello is his name ? We should have his whole title and more of his personal bio on file...
For Daniel.
d. 09.May.2005 03:44
Daniel,
Your claim that Judaism is just a religion is wrong. I am a case in point. I AM A JEW and I AM AN ATHEIST.
I am not religious, I don't have a religion, but I am still a Jew. Just because you are too close minded to understand doesn't mean I don't exist, I am out there as are lots of people similar to me.
when?
me 09.May.2005 12:52
does anyone know when
http://indyimdia.italy.org has been obscured? i'm from italy and now i can't reach that site...
italy.indymedia.org does indeed seem to be down
fd 09.May.2005 18:20
Around 20:00 EDT, italy.indymedia.org was unreachable, like earlier this afternoon...
Anyway, on italy.indymedia.org a few days back, it was mentioned that the site was under DDoS attack, which however had not brought down the site. Maybe the lamers who conducted the DDoS have stepped up their efforts.
on Jewish, Israel, Hebrew identities
RootsAlive 12.May.2005 22:41
Daniel,
Your logic is rather reactionary nad does not seem to be based on reflective reasoning. For instance, when you say the problem is monotheism, you claim that because there is one God, there is one truth, which you equate with fascism. Let me ask you, because there is one highest peak to a mountain does that mean that there is only one path up the mountain. The positing of a unity in the universe - call it GOD or unified theory - is not the same as giving it a name. Its intention was to bring peace to the wars between people and between the gods. But Judaism does not give God only one name, but many, as does Islam. This indicates aspects, indicates that the unity must have varied "faces" since it exists in relationship to us, to limited minds with words to break the continuum. And the holiest name cannot even be pronounced, for to do so would be none less than an act of idolatry, of trying to stamp an absolute label onto that which changes, which exists in relationship, namely, divinity. IN ancient Israel only the high priest dared speak this name, and only once a year, in solitude, in the holy of holies, a geometric design that seemed to channel energy, a vessel of sorts.
Now, I am Jewish, but prefer to call myself a Hebrew, for it is both my mother tongue AND the Hebrew word for Hebrew, Eevri, derives from the same root as "La'avor" to cross over, or "Evver" the other side. We Hebrews are thus both wanderers historically, and able to cross boundaries. Both these points shows why nationalism tied to nation state is a foreign concept to us, and thus is the state of Israel a failure on many - not all - counts. It is not in our culture to govern over a major bureaucracy tied to a land and a military. Old biblical laws are ignored - some of which are wise, such as those that call for a rest every seventh day, year and after seven sevens, a cancellation of all debts. The growth economy is thus also foreign to Hebrews, as the economy was controlled by cycles of time.
Sure, many people calling themselves Jews or Israelis know nothing of these laws, or know but do not live by them, having inherited the materialism of Babylon. Communism and capitalism are both products of this worldview, hence they failed to grasp the sacredness of the Earth or of life itself. Life is animated matter, anime is the soul. Animals we are, with an ability to reflect thought in our tools - language, phone, radio internet, etc...
The rhetoric against the State of Israel is not the rhetoric against "the Jews". "The Jews" is not a real category, but a construction deriving from Judah, when the kingdom of Israel split into two before it fell. The Hebrews were a nomadic people who suddenly decided to embrace monotheism, positing unity as the highest ideal. You can reject your "jewishness", reject "Israel", reject religion and all, but if you reject "unity" then you also reject Hebrew, and likely most other language associated peoples' worldviews. And if a Jew speaks to me in a way that dishonours the real unity of being, then I ask him what he is worshipping, what idol (ideal) what false God. We animate our words with passion and zeal, but it is not animation of the order that we and the animals and life is on. Language is subservient to life, though it does extend from it...
Hence, before you reject everything, Daniel, perhaps you can reclaim something. Maybe there is something that has been passed for millenia that is of worth to you, and maybe you can fight the state of Israel "as a Hebrew" and not as a Babylonian. You might be more effective, and might actually come to feel grounded/rooted in something that is not a negative. All these slogans and rhetoric can not replace a true connection to who we are. Finding some, even interim sense of identity, allows us to be more clear in "who we are NOT" - ie Ariel Sharon, George Bush, capitalists, communists, ists and isms---and reconnect to that which we all share: the breath of life.
By the way, some "Jews" are both religious and virulently anti-fascist and anti-state. And these teachings are in the Jewish sources...see www.shalomctr.org and read something there...And start being creative....
Aleph
anything for attention i suppose
john the baptist 14.May.2005 13:06
bad photoshop hack
Atheists CAN'T BE JEWS
American Atheists 31.May.2005 22:27
Judaism is a religion, nothing more. Anyone who claims that judaism is anything more or that they are an "Atheist Jew" is a fool.
https://lightning.he.net/~atheists/catalogue/shop/prod5356.php
http://njatheist.org/atheismandreligiondontmix.html
*"The doors of American Atheists are open only to those who abandon religion, whatever brand it may be. Our doors are not open to those persons who have not severed their ties to Judaism. Yes, you are excluded from the ranks of Atheists when you profess to be a Jew." - Madalyn Murray O'Hair, Founder of American Atheists, Georgetown, TX, 1982
Source: All the Questions You Ever Wanted to Ask American Atheists With All the Answers, by Jon Murray and Madalyn O'Hair, American Atheist Press, 1982, p. 222-224.