DEATH AND DESTRUCTION IN GAZA IN THE AFTERMATH OF ISRAELI ATTACKS18 Oct 2004 10:22 GMT
Although the Israeli army has “withdrawn,” it continues to commit war crimes against a civilian population throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip. On one day, during the attacks, Israeli soldiers kill 32 Palestinians and wounded more than 102 during their incursion into northern Gaza. Three Israelis were also killed. The military attacks focused on refugee camps in northern Gaza, where the army said Qassam rockets were fired. Whatever the reason the Israeli army is using to justify the attacks, men, women and children are paying a heavy price. Israeli is violated international law by attacking areas that resulted in civilian deaths and injuries. Mohammed Omer reports from Gaza: It smells unbelievably bad here. To walk down any street—if you dare to—you skirt, or sometimes unavoidably walk through, pools of blood. There are shreds of human flesh—some of them unrecognizable as human remains—all over, on rooftops, plastered to broken windows, on the street. The stench of rotting blood mixes with the more acrid odor of flesh burnt to black char by the rockets fired by the Israeli Army's American-made Apache helicopters. The sky is full of black smoke, some from the rocket explosions, but even more, it sometimes seems, from the endless fires of tires and other debris that people keep stoking. The smoke confuses the heat-seeking unmanned drone surveillance planes, so setting fires in any relatively open area may draw fire and let a bomb explode somewhat harmlessly. All this smoke mixed with plaster and cement dust is a blessing and a curse. The stench of burning flesh and rotting blood masks to some extent the smell of raw sewage from broken sewer pipes and the tens of thousands of bodies unwashed for over a week now. Water to drink is a rare and precious commodity here—baths and showers have become impossible luxuries. Your eyes inevitably tear up from all the smoke—but then, that protects you a tiny bit from some of the more harrowing sights—recognizable body parts—a piece of a leg, an obvious part of a torso, and fingers—more scattered, individual, recognizable fingers than anyone should ever have to see. Volunteer crews are gathering these human fragments and bringing them to Jabalya's two hospitals but the ambulances cannot possibly keep up with the flood of newly dead and injured. Funeral processions are everywhere, and "houses of mourning"—the tents bereaved families set up in which to receive their families and friends. In fact, though, every house here, those relatively intact and those partly or wholly destroyed by the IDF tanks and bulldozers, is a house of mourning. And nothing protects you from the sounds—the tears and laments of the mothers and fathers, husbands, wives and children of the dead, the screams of the injured, the wail of ambulance sirens, sniper fire, the thud of tank shells and the too-frequent explosions as another Apache shell lands. Time is distorted here—hours feel like days, days like weeks or months. This is Jabalya Refugee Camp in the Northern Gaza Strip, one of the most crowded places on earth where 106,000 men, women, and children, the overwhelming majority of them unarmed civilians, have been under an all-out attack for over a week now. Israel's official position is that this carnage is a "response" to Palestinian militants' firing a homemade Qassam rocket into the Israeli town of Sderot last week, a rocket which killed two children. In fact, though, the first tanks rumbled into Jabalya some hours before the rocket attack on Sderot, and we had all been watching with alarm as the Israeli forces multiplied in northern Gaza over the last few weeks—2000 fresh troops, over a hundred more tanks and bulldozers. It is only when I sit down to write up my notes made here in the last few days that the cruelty of the IDF name for this attack—"Days of Penitence"—hits me. They are not just slaughtering unarmed civilians, but language itself. "Penitence," as I understand it, is voluntary remorse for wrong-doing. Is this massacre supposed to induce remorse in its victims? Are they supposed to mourn the deaths of four or five Israeli soldiers, and two Israeli children and accept the death of more than 60 Palestinian civilians as some kind of justice? To those of us trapped in Jabalya, it seems like Days of Revenge. It is unquestionably collective punishment, and illegal under the Geneva Conventions. Perhaps we should not be surprised. Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has announced this attack will last "as long as necessary," that is, until there is "no further danger" from the Palestinian resistance's homemade rockets. Sharon, of course, engineered the massacres of Sabra and Shatila over twenty years ago. Now, he is doing much the same, but with vastly improved weaponry. Of course, the militant factions exist, and have been striking here and there during this last week but they are vastly outnumbered, not to mention out-gunned, by the Israelis. Hamas, on its side, has distributed leaflets in Gaza City vowing to continue the rocket attacks on the illegal Israeli settlements in Gaza and any Israeli towns and cities their home-made ordnance can reach as long as the Israeli incursions continue. International protests have been muted, and stymied by United States support for Israel. The lone, feeble voice from the US State Department urged Israel to keep its "response" "proportional"—after, of course, the obligatory mantra, "Israel has a right to defend itself." A strongly worded resolution condemning the attack brought before the UN at the beginning of the week was defeated by the US veto. It is hard to maintain accurate casualty figures—the most recent count seems to be 80 Palestinians killed (20 of them militants claimed by Hamas) and over 200 injured. Unquestionably, by the time this is printed, the figures will be higher. There is no refuge anywhere in Jabalya. The hospitals are chaotic, supplies are short and all medical personnel have been working around the clock for days now. I saw Abu Nedal, the father of Nedal Al Madhown a 14 year-old boy, struggle to maintain his composure as he asked the exhausted doctors and ambulance drivers, "Was my son killed? Has he been killed?" (In fact, the boy was dead on arrival..) The majority of the dead and injured have been teens and children, obvious non-combatants. I interviewed Dr. Mahmoud Al Asali, the director of Kamal Adwan Hospital, who told me he was forced to assume the Israeli Army has been deliberately targeting civilians. He said most of those injured by gunfire were wounded in the upper parts of their bodies, indicating the Israeli sharpshooters must have orders to shoot to kill. Palestinian doctors have removed many flechettes from the dead and injured, indicating the IDF are using illegal fragmentation bombs. These release razor sharp flechettes as they explode. Dr. Al Asali says these illegal fragmentation devices greatly increase the number of deaths and the number and severity of injuries. The IDF has refused to comment on this. The hospital staffs and ambulance crews are so overextended that they are using volunteers for the gruesome task of collecting, sorting, and attempting to match scattered human remains to return as much as possible to bereaved families. One of these medical workers, Ahmed Abu Saall 26, from Kamal Aswan Hospital, told me, "One enormous difficulty we face is that these powerful bombs can scatter the parts of a single victim over a wide area. It is quite possible parts of a person could end up in Al Awda hospital in the east of the camp, while other parts of the same person end up with us here on the western side." Sometimes shreds of clothing can help with the matching. The Israeli Army has frequently shot at the medical teams and journalists. So far, two ambulance drivers have been injured, and a cameraman from Ramatan News Agency has been hurt. Of course, the ambulance crews and press all wear identifying gear. Israel has closed all borders into Gaza and has severely restricted all movement within the Gaza Strip. There are three major "zones" split off by sealed military checkpoints, but recent days have seen numerous new checkpoints, and roads closed by cement block and sand obstructions. People cannot move between cities, not even ambulances bringing patients to hospitals. Moreover, the main Israel-Gaza crossing is closed, even to international NGOs, humanitarian relief groups, and foreign journalists. Intense as the military attack has been, and continues to be, it is certainly not the only danger to the people here. Many families now have been without food and water for days. In Tal Al Zattar, the eastern part of Jabalya, I interviewed Umm Ramzi, an elderly lady who spoke to me through the gaping hole a tank shell had left in her house. "We have been appealing to the Red Cross, to save our lives and the lives of our children, but nobody has responded." Most of the NGO workers and relief organizations have—logically enough—assumed they cannot get through the Israeli military lines that completely surround Jabalya, although they are well aware that the civilians need help. I managed to reach the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), spokesman Simon Schorno by phone and he told me: "I'm in my way to Gaza now. We have been talking to the IDF to get permission to bring food and water, but we were not able to get an OK for complete food distribution". Concerning the absence of the Red Cross in the past few days when many families were in urgent need, Mr. Schorno said, "I feel terrible. We are trying to do our best to get food and water inside, but the damaged streets also delay us from reaching the people." A number of eyewitnesses among the camp residents told me the Israeli Army has commandeered several high buildings as sniper posts and basically shoot anything that moves. One of the most recent victims was Islam Dweidar, 14, who took a chance during an apparent lull in firing to buy bread for her mother. However, she was shot in the head by an Israeli sniper. In the Southern part of the Gaza Strip, the Israeli Army has increased the number of tanks and bulldozers in all parts of Khan Younis and Rafah. There has been shelling every night, with many injured and killed. This morning, I spoke by phone to Dr. Ali Mussa, director of Abu Yousif Al Najjar Hospital in Rafah who announced that 13-year-old Eman al Hums had been killed by Israeli sniper fire. He said, "the child arrived at the hospital after being riddled by twenty bullets in different parts of her body, five of them in her head." Palestinian eyewitnesses reported that Al Hums was killed while on her way to school with two other schoolgirls. In early media reports, the IDF said she was planting a bomb; they later were forced to admit the accusation was false. These current attacks are now far worse than the so-called "Operation Rainbow" of last May, which killed 40 in Rafah and prompted an international outcry. Now, the silence from America, in particular, seems to condone this turning the Gaza Strip into a killing field. Sharon has picked his moment well, when America is preoccupied with its presidential campaign and its invasion of Iraq, to decimate the children of Gaza. How many more must die before the world speaks out? |
Protests?
Bubblenut 18.Oct.2004 12:47
I'm absolutely shocked about this. Does anyone know of any protests going on in London over this?
Shocked!
an independant educated american 18.Oct.2004 20:41
In light of recent events here in america, i can see how something of this nature has gone unnoticed. Also the checkpoints and blocking of foriegn journalists into the city make sense with how none of this has come to my ears before now; However, the article could have some exagerrations, and although i believe most of this to be true, some of it may be sensationalism to get people to open thier eyes and see what is happening.
the world is soo fucked up right now
-i hope that if there is a higher power out there he is making sure we dont blast ourselves into oblivion-
HIDEOUS!!!
Jade Harper 19.Oct.2004 01:47
It is absoulutely appalling the atrocities that are committed with American war aircraft as ignorant and clueless Americans sit glued to their televisons rapt with interest listening to the bullshit of two equally incompetent leaders debating the validity of said bullshit. Would anyone care if this article landed on Fox 5? How much 'power of pride' would those bumper sticker toting assholes really have in this country if they had a clear picture of ALL we are responsible for? World Peace my ass!
stand up israel
i´ve seen it with my own eyes 19.Oct.2004 12:22
israelis need to stop this violence. you cannot live in relative calm while less than 100km away people are being blown up by your army. suicide bombers in israel are a minor nuisance compared to the horror suffered daily by palestinians at the hands of the israeli army. don´t be surprised by the next suicide attack in israel....if i suffered daily like most palestinians, i´d want to blow myself up too.
stand up for peace and dignity for all people....
then maybe this madness will stop.
power to the refuseniks!
Shocked As Well!
Shai Ohev Zion 19.Oct.2004 14:51
My name is shai and i live in Ramat Gan in Israel and i must state that i'm shocked but not becuase of the facts that are brought here before the readers but by the fact NOT brought here. this ONE-SIDED propaganda against Israel must stop!
don't you think that there is anouther side? how can you blindly believe those facts without no israeli comment?
when you see the number of Palestinians killed in "Yeme Tshuva" (hebrew name of the oparation) you can't read that most of them are terrorist who died only cuz they wouldn't surrender and put down their weapons.
you can't see pictures of OUR killed soldiers ,and our beaten and bullet-holed IDF Jeeps return home. and i'm sure you've never seen i soldier in battle shock or temporary shock after terrorists killed half a squad in an urben oparation.
but the fact is that we MUST continue these oparations becuase gaza is a terrorists making factory, and every day up to 10 suicide bombers are stopped already INSIDE Israel.
luckly i'm here to try to give you our side.
today, and this is from Ynet.co.il - a news site, six Palestinians were killed by IDF (Israeli Defense Froce) , all six were Terrorists! don't believe us? 2 were killed from a distence of 100m after crossing our defense border, 2 other killed in the south of the strip after trying to plant a bomb for our jeeps and soldiers.
it's true.
one child WAS killed by israeli forces with no excuse.
we all know that! that story is running in our papers and news for the past days and already the involed soldier was discharged from the force and sent stright to prison.
we are no killers and we try to deal only with the ones who try to destroy us but accidents happen and we deal with them two.
who is the israeli army killing?
pvh 20.Oct.2004 13:49
shai calls the reporting "one sided". so let's look at who is being killed? the palestinian centre for human rights lists 97 killed include 49 civilians, 25 of whom were children. the UN special rapporteur on palestine lists "only" 30 killed, and doesn't provide a breakdown, but refers to 191 houses destroyed in Gaza since May and specifically calls that "collective punishment" and a "war crime" (under the Geneva Convention).
i lived through apartheid in south africa and heard the same self-serving justications from my fellow whites that i now hear from israelis - typically centering on the barbarity of those who the apartheid regime oppressed, and the need to protect "us" from "them". apartheid south africa, apartheid israel - same difference.
too much hate
notenufflove 20.Oct.2004 14:28
warmongers
Not at all Shocked and thats all the more sad
OuttaAfrica 'nbetterforit 20.Oct.2004 14:29
Hey there people of the truth.
i am a south african(a white south african) and my country has been here at the same place as israel/palestine is today, and as such we have lived through many similar scenarios. As the world already knows, most of our population lived under a very oppresive regime for a very long time, where black people had about as many rights to self determination and security as the palestinian people do today. I am not going to go into many more details about life back then because this is a discussion about the palestinan/israeli situation. i would however like to point out a few of the more notable similarities and differnces between the old apartheid South africa and Israel to Shai, whom i think might feel a little less slighted as an israeli if he were not on the recieving end of an even more powerful propaganda machine. So here, Shai are some of the the intersting points i mentioned before.
1. Throughout the apartheid Regime Israel was always one of South Africas biggest trading partners des[ite the rest of the world having nothing to do with us. Especially in arms(where do you think you got those fuckoff big mobile artlilaries u pelt ur neighbours with we like to call the G6, or his lil bro the G5\
2. Since the fall of Apartheid, South African Israeli relations have never come close to reaching the same level of mutual benefit as they did before.
3. Many white South Africans who were not really even racist were still beguiled by the government regulated media into believing that the resistance movements were extremists bent on destroying ethical and civil society, and that their struggle was driven not by a desire to live as freely and securely as us but as a deep seeded hate for us to kill us and our children. This of course was bullshit, but it created enough localised fear to disregard international objections. And lastly the government squashed all reports of what you would call terrorist activity by the government on the population;body counts, tortures,incarceration etc. Our soldiers were also known to kill children and level townships killing many people as a response to the one cop who got beat up. of course they made it look like a riot. we could not see it cos we were too close to home. And the same is happening to you and your family and all your friends right now. will you call anyone who throws a stone at you a terrorist? anyone who spits at you sleeping in your bed with a full stomache, and a daily chance to get to university a terrorist? i doubt under normal circumstances you would, this means that in justifying your government you are either A)stupid B)scared or c)a hatemonger. and i doubt you are either A or C or else you would . You just listen to the news watch T.V. and listen to politicians, Dude that shit makes me scared.
4. lastly my government was doing this way back then, that stopped just over 10 years ago. Yours was doing it as the same time as ours but hasn't stopped.
my rant is nearly done i just have a few more comments on your post.
When you speak of "terrorists who died only cuz they wouldn't surrender and put down their weapons." are you refering to stones. and speaking of nimbers dont you think the body count is disproportinalty in your favour, 10 palestinans for every 1 israeli.
as for your"beaten and bullet-holed IDF Jeeps return home" i think you said it all there without realising it. What were they doing away from their home, beating and putting bullet holes into other peoples homes in the first place.
and as for continuing these operations cos "gaza is a terrorists making factory" all i can say is: "no shit it is, you come into my suburban neighborhood sniping and shooting and shelling and bombing and buldozing anything and everything, and youd be surprised at how many terrorists you would have created that weren't there before.
Any way thats my sermon for the day. No beefs with you personally dude but it takes a greater understanding of human nature and intolerance to being manipulated, than most of your people are showing.
Stick to Johns words and we'll all get along fine "all you need is love" - the beatles.
"I know not What weapons world war 3 will be fought with, but world war 4 will be fought with sticks and stones" -Albert Einstein.
Sad truth
George Crowley 21.Oct.2004 02:20
Zionists have been so successful at spinning this issue in the US for the past 60 years, that when it finally bubbles up into the consciousness of the average bubba, he thinks the Israelis are the victims!
And those politicians, who have to be aware of what is really going on, have no reservation in trading on moral principles and the US's well being, for re-election potential.
In the media there’s a constant theme of the holocaust and ‘never forget’. I think the Israelis and their special interest supporters have forgotten.
too bad
Dawe 21.Oct.2004 08:55
hello i am from CR (Czech rep.) and every day i can see in tv news from israel....it´s still same - kill,kill,kill...i don´t understand to this conflict...why?
Thank you
robin 21.Oct.2004 15:37
I want to thank the author of "Not at all Shocked..". You summed everything up for the Jew who posted and in a very precise way. I too can't imagine why Israelis don't see the reasons why Palestinians do the things they do; the psychology behind their actions. The same way they are "trying to defend themselves" Palestinians are trying to defend themselves. However, the severity with which Israelis do it and the reasons why Palestinians do it, are completely different. I can't imagine living under the conditions of oppression- I would blow myself up as well.
's matter wit u huh?
da_ruse 21.Oct.2004 17:35
would you do it if she asked u to stop?
I think shai owes OuttaAfrica a reply so's that we can all show that we have no intention in taking part in "one sided propaganda". also i'd like to hear what you say about the "never to forget comment" cos i hope that hit a nerv.
Dont you agree Shai?
Second Intifada
Zennhead 22.Oct.2004 01:48
I want to say that the Palestinian people must continue to find leaders who will work for peace.
I understand, however, as much as possible, without being there, that the Israelis have massive power that comes from their connection with the
American government.
I intend, as millions of us do, to vote for John Kerry.
I do not have any idea whether Kerry will promulgate new policies with Israel and the Palestinian people, but I hope so.
What Palestinians might want to know is that among the liberal/Progressive elements within the Democratic Party, and definitely among American
Socialists, Israel has lost much of its moral ascendacy because it so powerfully tries to DESTROY any vestige of strength of the Palestinian peoples.
I, as someone who studied the Holocaust for forty years, support an Israeli state. But, I also support a Palestinian state. I want to see the Palestinian people have hope, jobs, incomes, and peace.
The only thing I can do to try and make that happen is to vote for Kerry, and then, with other liberals and progressives, demand that changes take place
in the American-Israel relationship.
No longer must Ariel Sharon CONTROL American foreign policy in the Middle East.
I would ask that Senator (President Kerry) withdraw all military aid and support for Israel until all settlements that have been erected in the last fifteen years are torn down and vacated. Any encroachment on Palestinian lands made by Israeli settlers since the last war should be handed over to the Palestinians.
I would ask that both sides, Israeli and Palestinian, agree to the following:
For every dollar of American aid extended to the Palestinians for economic development, the Palestinian authorities must ensure that no new housing units
or any equipment, or money, extended by the United States to the Palestinian peoples, be used for any terrorist activities. It would seem to me (and I could
be very wrong), that if the Palestinian authorities had money to begin rebuilding all the housing that has been destroyed in the West Bank and Gaza, and occupied territories in the last fifteen years, perhaps the construction of this housing could give many viable jobs.
If the Palestinian authorities were able to ensure that new housing would not serve as launch pads for any kind of terrorist activities, or any kind of
military or para-military activities, that perhaps -- perhaps -- a sort of cordon would be constructed adjacent to any demarcation lines with Israel.
Democrats have often used public housing projects, along with street, sewer, lighting, and road construction, to employ thousands of people. The
revenue generated by these public works projects can often be extended over, say, a decade, and serve as a kind of steady source of income ... and hope.
Water treatment plants, plus the other works mentioned above, often provide better health for the citizens of such locations. Again, how can the United
States disengage itself from the militarism of Israel? How can we try and initiate unilateral connections with the Palestinian people? How can we begin
to connect with the people and their problems? Because there is no way the Palestinians will EVER be competitive with the Israel lobby.
This is because there are significant Jewish communities in the United States who are our neighbors. We support the concept of Israel, but more and
more, the generation (my generation) which grew up in the shadow of the Holocaust ... are becoming clearer that we do not OWE Israel an unlimited,
unending, unquenchable source of miltiary aid. If the Israelis (and the Palestinians) want to buy weapons and armaments, that is fine. Do it with your
own money.
But if the United States can support public works projects, seed money for small businesses, jobs, and hope, perhaps we can begin to break the tragic
cycle described in this story of the casualties of late.
Peace is the answer. The problem is how we, the people of the United States, can create a gap, a wedge, where we can begin to develop a dialogue with
the Palestinian peoples.
Zennhead
Resist war taxes
Paula Greene 22.Oct.2004 02:59
One positive step a person can take is resisting war taxes, redirecting them to life-affirming causes. Resistance/Redirection is non-violent consciencious objection, and goes hand-in-hand with whatever peace and justice work a person is already doing. There are many ways to accomplish this.
I strongly urge people to check out the National War Tax Resisters Coordinating Committee (www.nwtrcc.org), War Resisters League (www.warresisters.org) and Conscience and Peace Tax International (www.cpti.ws). There is also a very good book, Guide to War Tax Resistance, published by the War Resisters League, which is both a very thorough and comprehensive how-to and a brief history of this movement.
Jenin two years ago is what finally pushed me to take this step. This is worse! Redirecting is at times the only thing that keeps a thread of sanity alive for me - because marches, letters, even organizing - all these are meaningless as long as the terrible machine has the money to continue.
To those who say this is useless, I say: one step is still one step. When I began my civic life over forty years ago now, a rally was maybe six of us trying to talk to people who jeered and scorned; eventually that grew to tens, then hundreds, then thousands, tens of thousands.
Remember what General Alexander Haig said: "Let them march all they want - as long as they pay their taxes." Think about this (especially if you are a fellow American).
media distortions
FalTam 22.Oct.2004 08:33
As i see this so far, opinions are coming from people who have never been to israel, just reading the media. The media is on the palestinian side. Why? It's easy. Because the palestinian side says that 'the israeli army is coming to kill us!'. This is a very harsh and loud statement (besides it is not true) and it can be easily spread over any media. Showing pictures of killed people is easy, because people ARE BEING killed in the Gaza strip. The israelis can only say that they are 'preventing' terrorist attacks. This is a statement what is hard to defend when you're shooting apache rockets to terrorists. Why? because the hamas leaders are not walking alone. they are walking in crowd to be protected. and when an apache rocket hits a terrorist, it hits some innocent people too. This is a situation what is very hard to defend/explain.
BUT! The question is: DO YOU believe that the israeli government's aim is to KILL PALESTINIANS?
If you do, then you're convinced with the false media and you can stop reading me, you will probably answer 'one more pro-israeli stupid guy'.
But if you have the slightest doubt then read along...
I have a friend who was in the israeli army and served in the gaza strip. The soldiers mostly do patrolling there. You ask why? the fact is, EVERY SINGLE DAY, more than 5-10-15 (depends on the mood) armed palestinians (either with bombs or firearms) are wandering towards israeli towns and cities. Those palestinians are being arrested/shot depending on they actions/reactions. THIS FACT is never been shown to the media, because it is not bloody enough.
You say houses are being demolished by the army? I say that in the gaza strip more than 60% of all houses are either used for bomb-producing, hamas-meetings or the worst: there are tunnels from the houses, connecting each other, and CONNECTING to EGYPT, where dozens of bombs and firearms are smuggled into the gaza strip. Is this something you would let to be done, when those bombs and rockets are used to kill your people? I dont think so.
Another issue. In the PA the education is 'teach WAR'. I have seen books for elementary schools. Grammar example: I am proud to be part of destroying Israel. When I grow up I will fight against the Jews.
On their maps 'israel' is not stated at all, the whole land is called 'palestine'
KIDS ARE BEING TOUGHT TO BE ENEMIES!
In the very document of the palestinian foundation letter it is stated that 'The aim of the palestinian state is to destroy Israel'
This is what I call teach WAR.
Why there is not a peace? Because the Palestinian Authorities (Mr. Terrorist Arafat) is not interested in it. Why? He will stop getting money for bombing from Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Yichak Rabin (RIP) was already to give up 99% of the territories, said to be palestinian. He was already to give up half of Jerusalem. And what happened? Arafat said, he don't need it. He refused peace. Why? Because peace es not producing profit. War and terrorism does.
You say stones against rockets? I say that in the gaza strip and Zone A electricity and water is given by israelis to the palestinians. I say that israelis bulit infrastructure (police, hospitals) for the palestinians to maintain their security and medical care. What happens? Money is being stolen by the leaders, and the police is using the arms what they got from israel to kill israelis.
You think this is an act of peace?
I don't think so.
You say I'm not true? GO AND SEE! I did that. I talked to extremist from each side, and peace-wanters from each side. The worst is that palestinians, who are wanting peace are also blaming their leaders and educational system.... This is sad.
So, dont believe everything you see in the media, and furthermore dont believe what people say who have never been outside.
The author of the article looks like this: 'I am a proud american who came from my hamburgers to see the thirld or fourth world. I went to the worst place (Gaza) and I see soldiers marching in and out. I don't care why, i did'nt ask why, i just see violence and i want to cry out loud.
I have a message for you demagog pathetic: GO AND SEE THE OTHER SIDE, investigate, read, and after seeing the situation and phe problem big, try to think.
Sorry for the language, but I'm from europe and i'm really really pissed off of the stupidity of the americans. If you were able to THINK you'd not write these things....
Thank you if you've reached this point of my comment :)
Tamas, from Hungary, Europe
ps. I know you've never heard about this country. Its okay, youre just from the USA....
in response to Shai
jonny 22.Oct.2004 11:30
In respnse to Shai, maybe the fact that you are illegally occupying someone else's territory,with the backing of America (to the tune of 6 billion a year) is the reason for suicide bombings? Did you ever think that these so called terrorists are terrorists because their only way to respond is through suicide bombings, when your fucking country goes in with its (American) supplied gunships and tanks.Maybe its the fact that any jew returning to Israel is guarenteed land and a lump of money to settle there which is causing the problem, ever think of that!!?Its therefore so obvious why your continued incursion into Palestine is happening, otherwise where are all your brethren going to settle.Of course we all know that America is run by the corporations, who is the most powerful corporaionn? The banks, who runs the runs the biggest banks? The jews.Who is your biggest ally?America.You and your people make me nausious.
In response to Tamas
lupita fitzcarraldo 22.Oct.2004 13:36
Let us analize Tama's post for the sake of argument and clarity:
1- Allow me to start at the very end of it all; I DO know where Hungary is. Not
everybody reading these pages is of American origin, and even if they were,
it seems to me you are doing yourself no favours by insulting their
intelligence and feeding into the stereotypes. I am in a fact from
S'farad. Do you know where that is, Tamas? I try not to be angry at something
that did not even happen to me, something that happened more than 500 years
ago...
2- I have no need to be in israel to know exactly what is going on there. I
know people on both sides (although they do not believe they are on different sides), who are able to provide me with objective first hand info, and guess what they all say, yes, PEOPLE ARE BEING KILLED IN THE GAZA STRIP; at a ratio of 1 Israeli for every 20 palestinians. I am not making up these facts, Tamas. These facts are the hard reality both the Israelis and the Palestinians try to block out every single day in order to survive and enjoy life. Only difference is that Israelis enjoy themselves silly at some Tel Aviv beach to which Palestinians have been denied access. The following links are just a few places you can go to in order to find information on these facts, and much more:
www.btselem.org The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. Yes, that´s right. They are Israeli. And they are the global authority for comprehensive information regarding any aspect of the conflict.
www.gush-shalom.org Israeli Pacifist Organization. Did you know that its founder, Uri Avnery, now a fervent peace activist was once a die-hard militant in the ranks of several Zionist groups such as Etzel, and that he fought alongise the Samson Foxes during the 6 Days War? I can feel you furrowing your brow at the thought of this treasonry...
www.haaretz.com You may not think much of that biased attitude the media displays towards the Palestinian cause. I don´t, either. That is why I would like you to read Israel´s liberal newspaper, and then draw your own conclusions. If you still think there exists a real bias after glancing at Israel’s so-called liberal media, I will eat my hat. You can also read anything by Al Franken (sorry, he´s a progressive Jew), he always gives interesting insights into the media´s "liberal bias".
3- Answer to your question; yes, I do believe the Israeli government is intent on killing as many Palestinians as humanly possible. It is not as if the article lied about Sharon´s role in the Sabra and Shatila massacre. It has been well documented throughout thr years, and its own prepetrator has never been intent on hiding the facts. So there.
4- The old argument “TUNNELS ARE CONNECTED FROM GAZA TO EGYPT” is becoming tiresome at this stage. It seems amazing how ungrateful the Israelis are towards Mitzrayim (Egypt, Tamas, Egypt) taking in account how hard this country´s government has worked throughout the years to abandon the Palestinians to their own fate in order to ingratiate themselves with Israel. Egypt´s tourist economy relies greatly on Jews taking their well-deserved vacations in Taba. So there. Again. And get over yourself. Every single Jew has a friend who has served in the Israeli army. Although that is changing fast taking in account that more and more of them are refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories.
5- I agree. Violence breeds violence. It is not good to teach your child to hate others. It is not good to tell them that the “baddy” must die because they hurt people. However, anybody who starts reading at this point would not be clear whether I am referring to an Israeli or a Palestinian. Do you know why? Because both sides are so stuck in their own hate that they cannot see how similar they look and act....
6- Which is to say that I do not seek to deny that a number of Palestinians agree with the idea of destroying the State of Israel. Nobody ever said that the Palestinian population was in good hands. But please, get over yourself, again. Mr Terrorist Arafat? Bombing from Iraq? Gee. You Hungarians haven´t seen him in a while on T.V., have you? Come to think of it, we haven´t either. BECAUSE HE IS UNDER HOUSE ARREST SOMEWHERE IN THE GAZA STRIP. And even if he weren´t I do not think it would make the slightest difference. Corruption has taken over indeed. But wait a minute, is that Omri Sharon escaping trial for corruption by the skin of one´s teeth? Tut, tut.
7- And there we go again. Jews are generous creatures who will go out of their way to help others. Well, just like everybody else yeah? Although it is flattering. Thank you.
8- Tamas, you sound like a “proud European who came with your paprika to see the Third or Fourth world for yourself. You went to the worst place (Gaza) and you saw soldiers marching in and out. You don't care why, You didn´t ask why. You just saw violence and you didn´t want to cry out loud”. Oh, and I amended the mistakes. Man, you need to learn to write English properly. After all, America is Israel´s number one ally (and they mainly speak English, ya know?).
PS:
I just read Jonny´s post and I would like to add that as much as I don´t appreciate Tamas´ ignorance and use of rancid stereotypes, I despise the use of even more rancid and antisemitic stereotypes. Jews DON´T run all the banks in the world, and NOT all corporations are run by Jews. Last time I checked there were a lot of Celtic, English and Saxon sounding names on the boards of those corporations. Please, let´s be rational.
if you are gods own people, then act with his wisdom.
OuttaAfrica 'nbetterforit 22.Oct.2004 14:38
directed at Zenhead the democrat first and then fal tal.
firstly push ur own elections with the jews in the U.S. do you really think the palestinian people will give a flying fuck when their homes are still getting bulldozed a year from now if/when/after kerry makes it to office. Don't get me wrong we in the rest of the world do realize what a puppet gorgy georgey is and we readilly accept that anybody would be better than bush even kerry. But thats cos we know that when america stuffs up the rest of the world picks up the tab.
i dont like to throw around the conspiracy theory rhetoric but do you really think any leader you put up there that is a card carrying member of a secret society; (the same secret society as gorgy george, and his dad and grandads) that's first rule is to never talk about it, aim is to advance the positions of the society and it's members first foremost and above all else, and clubhouse slogan is the word "WAR" is going to make life better for all palestinians than your either trying to con us our you are a lot more naive than someone who has lived for forty years or studied the holocaust ought to be. i tell you what i would like to see. i would like to see how long israel would survive if hell froze over and america did stop giving them their warchest and "aid". (i know it'l never happen but its a nice thought experiment as to their legitimacy) The only support your government ever gives is when it stands to benefit three times more than the recipient of aid. Lastly i do think your hearts in the right place but i think you should keep ur domestic political propaganda at home, cos the pally's were getting fucked up when clinton was in office too.(and even cynical ol me liked him)
my second rant is for tal mal.
first of all Dude it's not a terrorist act. terrorist acts are isolated events like hijackings, 9/11, foreign embassy bobmings and so on. what is happening there is a struggle, a fucking war man just not the type of war you know. just because they can't afford racy uniforms and fancy gadgets like the israelis, you mistake a palestinian soldier/militant for a terrorist. Whats that? he cant be a soldier cos the pallestinian's arn't allowed an army, and anyway he blows himself up with innocents. wake up. Bear in mind that the word 'terrorist' previously only refered to the cases i mentioned above. now the term is applied to any disempowered arab fighting for a nationalistic cause. as for the 60% of houses being used for all that other stuff you find so heinous especially smuggling guns. that just makes me smile, i mean israelis out gun them by like 3 tanks, one attack chopper and half a nuke for every kalishnikov.
You wanna talk about media distortion fine. hows about this: prominent American Jews lead and work widely in the media, the film industry, banking and politics. Media figures include members of the Sulzberger family, who owns the New York Times, US News and World Report publisher Morton Zuckerman, CNN president Walter Isaacson, and the editor of Weekly Standard William Kristol. now run a google on all those companies and see how many other media and news companies fall under their ownership. Somethin stupid like 64% of the worlds media outlets end up being jewish owned. how else do you explain two tank divisions going in, in response to one israeli girl dead. you want more media distortion? anybody else notice how, nobody even looked at the israeli/palestinian conflict when the cowboys went into afghanistan, and it was also ignored for the first couple of months of bush in iraq. as far as i understand there was some pretty ugly stuff happening then that you didn't see because the israel sympathisers had something else to keep you occupied.
i will concede this however; i think the pallestinian people could use a better leader than yasser arafat, his strength lies less in foresight and more as an icon.
P.s. this is not an attack on jews. i just know where most of your sympathies lie.
So what are they doing away from their homes?
Khush 23.Oct.2004 06:28
o.k., I'll start by saying that I HAVE read all of the comments posted while trying my best to have an open mind and if I seem biased, then so be it, this is the best I can do. Israeli troops are being killed, this is acknowledged. Why are they in Gaza though? Do you think that there is something inherent to being Palestinian that causes people to go out and try to kill people? I have never wanted to kill anybody in my life, but you know what, I've lived a pretty privileged life. I left India when I was young, before I was old enough for the police violence in Punjab to get bad enough to enter my consciousness. If I was still there, damn straight I would be angry and probably violent. NOBODY with any shred of humanity in them is going to sit down and take it as there very right to exist is placed in the hands of people who couldn't give a damn. And then, what does this anger do against a machine gun? Palestinians that are being hurt and killed, do the Palestinian "secret" groups or whatever provide them with a machine gun each? They're fighting against one of the most well organized and equipped armies in the world with rocks and homemade bombs, yet they continue fighting. They are not evenly matched
As to the media bias, I'm not seeing it. Because so far, I think the media is kinda biased towards the Israeli side. We hear about the suicide attacks when they happen, where they happen, exactly how many are killed and injured. Do we hear about every single Israeli action? Every now and then I do make myself sit down and watch Fox and you know what, not one single time have I gotten to hear the Palestinian side that is apparently being shouted out from the rooftops.
The question isn't Israeli self-preservation here, if only it were as simple as that. The question is power interests playing with people's lives in the most dangerous ways possible. It's hard not to take these things personally, but I'm not attacking the Israeli people. It makes me really mad when people say that. Just like it makes me made when people say that I'm unpatriotic for attacking Bush. When did government policies start defining nations? This is just my two cents, and I do live in the states and no I've never visited Israel. I do think though that all this trying to prove that the Palestinian and Israeli conflict is somehow an evenly matched "war" is just another way to make it o.k. for Israel to continue to occupy other people's land.
re: media distortions
More zio crybabies! Bring 'em on! 24.Oct.2004 02:31
"As i see this so far, opinions are coming from people who have never been to israel, just reading the media. The media is on the palestinian side."
Seeing this opening statement, I knew the rest of FalTam's post would be total slanted bullshit, and sure enough it was.
It's pretty clear you're an Israeli, FalTam, so are you talking about Israel's media here? If so, I'm having a really hard time believing you. If not Israel's, which media do you mean? I hope you're not representing marginalized sources like this website as "the media." That would be really inane of you. I live in the U.S., the country whose Hitlerian lust for global domination is keeping your guns loaded, and I haven't the vaguest idea what you're talking about. Every form of media here is saturated with pro-Israel viewpoints and propaganda, even the "liberal" ones, like NPR, our public radio network.
You sound a lot like your pal Shai, who offered this equally delusional screed:
"this ONE-SIDED propaganda against Israel must stop! don't you think that there is anouther side? how can you blindly believe those facts without no israeli comment?"
The attempt at manipulation here is so bald and ham-handed, it seems like an explicit expression of contempt for my intelligence. Yeah, of course there's "another side." It can be accessed anywhere by anyone at any time by turning on a television or radio or simply taking a walk and browsing all the screaming headlines. Sites like indymedia and articles like this one are the only counterbalance in sight anywhere, so what you two are REALLY saying is that you want such things abolished, making the strident pro-Israel stuff the only propaganda available. You have a lot in common with the extreme right in America -- fascists, basically -- who are also convinced the media is always working against them. This delusion is easy to explain: they (and you) despise any deviation from their own incredibly selfish viewpoint, feel personally threatened by anyone anywhere having any means of access to other views, and are constantly conspiring to eliminate that ability. One way to accomplish this is by agitating for "fairness" and "balance" such as that found on the Fox News channel, i.e. screaming reactionary drivel that echoes your own.
The bunch of you are deadly enemies of everything implied by the word "democracy." Your real goal is nothing less than a cognitive dictatorship, in which people are only allowed to think what you want them to think. This authoritarian impulse is one of the human species' ugliest attributes. Forced to choose between a future in which assholes like you ultimately prevail or another in which civilization self-destructs, I'd pick the latter any day. But hey, I don't have to: they're the same thing!
Bright future? or not!
Opuid 25.Oct.2004 08:16
Each side has suffered, and the israelies having more gun power are showing it for sure.
What is the true next step?
What does the people want?
I belive that israelies want to stop the fighting and living in peace while surrounded by four muslim countries, and 1/5 of the population of israel are muslim.
On the other side palastinien want to live in peace, where israel will be no more.
I cant see a bright future.
A peace where everybody will be satisfied,
The palstinien want the land and Israel will fight on it.
Scared
ColdFusion Guru 27.Oct.2004 17:19
I would like to post a response to this message but I think I should just bottle it up inside of me instead.
The last thing I want is to have the FBI come and question me because I dare question the massacre that is going on illegally in the Middle East (and No, I am not talking about Iraq - I am talking about Palestine).
I am not pro-Arab (or anti-Arab), but I can tell you that what is going on over there from a transparent, logical, un-biased point of view is 100% illegal and inhumane.
We are paralyzed to want to even THINK about talking about what is going on.
The seizure of the servers the other day was not designed to destroy the Web site or disrupt traffic.
It was designed to scrare the hell out of the users who visit the site to go and hide in their holes and not dare question what it going on in the world. Ever wonder who REALLY runs the show and is in charge of the FBI, the gov't and the corporate world?!? Don't even think about thinking about it or someone will knock on your door with (or without) a search warrant.
I, for one, won't come back to this site because I'm scared the FBI might have illegally pulled my name off the hard disk and might come after me for questions in case I questioned the war in Iraq or something.
They aren't illegally taking our freedom of speech away. Instead, what they are doing is making us paranoid that we will be tracked or something by coming to these "underground" (non-bullshit-censored) Web sites. That, my friends, is pretty smart on their end. What am I going to do about? Nothing! They own the law! If I dare question why our rights are being taken away, then I might end up in Guantamano Bay or somewhere else and nobody will even know where I ended up. Sound like fiction, ever ask the entire world community about how illegal those actions are and what can they do about it?!?
The answer is just shut up and hide in your hole and continue to be afraid to speak your voice. Or else you might be deemed as a "terrorist" and they can hold you without trial.
2 sides can...
from me... 27.Oct.2004 18:09
Hello readers…
There are a few short points I will like to make…
1. It is so easy to sit in your house or apartment is the USA, UK or any where else far from the issue and make comments about some thing you may know very little about… one has to see the conflict first hand and feel the fear of walking on the street or going letting your children go out on the town just to get the news that they where killed out side the night club while waiting in line… a wise man said… You take my problems and I will take your point of view…
2. There are and were mistakes in handling the issue by both sides (going back many years)… it is not a one-way conflict… only a fool with think differently… But who navigate his ship by the wake it has made
3. Peace is made with your enemies not your friends… forgiveness and mutual understanding, compromising and the end to judgment is the most difficult thing in any conflict resolution… don’t matter if it is Israel or South Africa or India and Pakistan… Pease will not come with a gun to any ones head… healing takes years… but need to be desired or else it will never come...
4. Peace must be desired and cherished… I irrevocably believe that there is the possibilities for peace… if both sides find leaders that will direct and lead their citizens to peace with the same passion and conviction as are about security, revenge, anger, religion and selfish power...
Thank you…
Derek Tussing
Oh please
rolling eyes 28.Oct.2004 01:44
"I, for one, won't come back to this site because I'm scared the FBI might have illegally pulled my name..."
And this person is, if anything, their paid accomplice.
Fuck it, let 'em come after me. They've already annihilated honor, truth, beauty, and just about everything else worth living for anyway.
afraid of mickey mouse
Francisco 29.Oct.2004 15:28
"I, for one, won't come back to this site because I'm scared the FBI might have illegally pulled my name"
Well I don't give a shit about the FBI and am not afraid of them in any way so what the hell i'll keep saying what i mean here in indymedia and anywhere else.
Beijinhos,
-Francisco
whoooooooooooooooooooo
itzhak 06.Nov.2006 11:59
taht a bad story but not truth and my friend stop sheling rokets to israel and lets see if the IDF keep going